Sorry Mben, but I have an issue with the AZ...

[PSP]

What is up with this?http://legiscan.com/AZ/bill/HB2467I'm about as non-religious as you can get (aka do whatever you want - it's none of my business), but I think if this were the true law of the land, I wouldn't be a high school graduate It's very uncool to force ANYONE to agree to stuff that they don't necessarily believe - just to get the ticket.... ... and even if you DO agree and believe, this nation was built on religious freedom. Stuff like this puts us in lock step with the Taliban and other religious fanatics.Let freedom ring free!

 

[PSP]

Next thing you know, they are going to want me to cut my hair to conform to the norms of society... Just like gun owners, I'll be cold and dead first!  (It's not easy being a quasi-hippie in the 21st Century) 

 

[Mben]

Let me start by saying ... I am an American. I am proud to be an American. I will defend my COUNTRY to the end. All citizens of the USA should defend our country to the end also. However, I do not support the GOVERNMENT fully. I do not support half the elected officials who attempt to create or have created laws that go against what I believe in, etc., etc. and ad infinitum. I support my country, the citizens of my country ..... not the people who run our country. There is a difference. With that said .... here I go.  Wow! I'm kind of embarrassed for the people of AZ or for the people who voted these fools into office! This article broke it down a bit better for me and shows another proposal that was introduced also.  <a href="http://www.northernarizonagazette.com/tag/hb-2467/" >http://www.northernarizonagazette.com/tag/hb-2467/</a>1.  HB 2284, sponsored by Representative Steve Smith would require schools in grades one to twelve to set aside a specific time during the day in which students would be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance unless their parents specifically request the pupil be excused.My feelings about this is I grew up reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in school. I have no problem with this. To me, children need a foundation, structure, guidance and education as their delicate minds are being formed before they are able to make decisions for themselves. Once they are able to make their own decisions, they should be able to choose which flag they want to pledge their allegiance to. But here it is. A part of the POA  .... one nation under God ...   is where the 1st amendment comes to the forefront. The government cannot make a law that enforces respecting an establishment of religion  or impeding the free exercise of religion. So rewrite the POA and take the word God out if it is such a big deal but don't take away a pledge that ALL Americans as a citizen of the USA should believe in ... to their core.  2. (This is the one you are referring to PSP) Another bill raising constitutional eyebrows is sponsored by freshman Representative Bob Thorpe. HB 2467, would require students to take an oath to support and defend the Constitution similar to those required by public officials. In addition to passing the required course of instruction, the principle or head teacher of a school would have to certify in writing that the student performed the following oath :I, _________, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely , without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; So help me God.This is total BS! And a contradiction. How can you state under oath that you took the obligation freely when there is a very large stake at hand .... the fact that a child won't be able to graduate (regardless that their grades were good) unless they perform this oath? That doesn't sound free to me. If my gradutaing child does not hold this oath true to his/her heart, he/she should not forced to recite it. No if's, and's or but's about it. BUT, if my child does not believe in this oath, I would question who's allegiance (country) he/she holds! I would not question which God they are praying to. That is their choice. But if they choose to be recognized as a citizen of the USA, then there should be no question that they believe in this oath ... to the point of So help me God. The article (link above) goes on to say that Representative Thorpe said that the intent was to inspire the students to further study the Constitution. He said, however, that he intends to change the wording of the bill to make it voluntary .  Now I must see about voicing my concern over these two issues and making sure people I know are aware of what their AZ government is attempting to make into law.  Thank you, PSP. I wouldn't have known.  -- Edited by Mben on Tuesday 29th of January 2013 11:34:36 AM

 

[Mben]

PSP wrote: Next thing you know, they are going to want me to cut my hair to conform to the norms of society...

I almost forgot ..... even if you were made to cut your hair, you would never be conformed to the norms of society. Norms = Normal (just kidding again! lol)

 

[PSP]

Mben wrote:

PSP wrote: Next thing you know, they are going to want me to cut my hair to conform to the norms of society...

I almost forgot ..... even if you were made to cut your hair, you would never be conformed to the norms of society. Norms = Normal (just kidding again! lol)

 Point well taken!  One interesting historical note on the Pledge of Allegiance - prior to 1954, the phrase under God did not appear in the POA. It was added after a big campaign by The Knights of Columbus starting in 1951.

 

[Mben]

PSP wrote:

One interesting historical note on the Pledge of Allegiance - prior to 1954, the phrase under God did not appear in the POA. It was added after a big campaign by The Knights of Columbus starting in 1951.

Aha! I was on the right track! Thanks for that tibit of info. I never knew that. This is what I found after a search and is quite funny now that I know what my state of AZ wants to do with the POA. And that is to set aside time during the day in which students would be REQUIRED to recite the POA.  Between 1924 and 1954, the Pledge of Allegiance was worded:<blockquote style="font-family:arial, helvetica; "> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [/QUOTE]In 1954, during the McCarthy era and communism scare, Congress passed a bill, which was signed into law, to add the words under God. The current Pledge reads:<blockquote style="font-family:arial, helvetica; "> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [/QUOTE]The Pledge is recited, on average, tens of millions of times a day -- largely by students in schools across America. Here's the funny part .......... On 2002-JUN-26, a three j u dge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals  voted 2 to 1 to declare the Pledge unconstitutional because of the addition of the phrase under God. This decision only affects the states of AK, AZ , CA, HI, ID, MT, NV, OR and WA. The ruling stating that the text of the official Pledge, codified in federal law, impermissibly takes a position with respect to the purely religious question of the existence and identity of God. I guess whoever is trying to bring the pledge back to schools is a bit ticked off that it became unconstitutional at all??? I don't know the reason behind all these BS laws and declarations and such. All I know is it costs money, is a waste of time and does no good for the citizens half the time.   PSP, do you agree or disagree with anything I said earlier? Just wondering if what I said makes any kind of sense. God and country is like God and a football team. I don't care who you're praying to, begging them to win the game, as long as you are part of the team, you play (I'm not saying pray) strong and hard for that team! 

 

[PSP]

I believe that patriotism is important and noble, so I don't have a problem with the spirit of the Pledge of Allegiance - I'm just don't see why it is necessary to invoke a deity in either the Pledge or the Oath of Office. Imagine what the world would be like if all people were enlightened and understanding enough to embrace the concept that it is completely acceptable for other folks to believe in something different than you do with all the same passion that you do.It doesn't make them right or wrong - just different. 

 

[Calig116]

I also grew up reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I think it is a very healthy thing to do..the entire class reciting this pledge together brought a spirit of unity at the start of the day, although at the time we didn't understand it. I have been practicing Nichiren Buddhism for 8 years, and have no problems with the the Christian-based perspectives infused all throughout this country, including the dollar bill. If my daughter were to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school, it wouldn't bother me, as I have explained to her that there are varying perspectives of what God is and that it's a matter of interpretation. She will continue to delve further into this as she matures, and already understands quite a bit at 12 and asks very intelligent questions, both within our faith and of our Christian friends (I let her go to the Catholic children's classes taught by a friend of ours, as I think that for her to go with what's within her heart, and also why we practice this Buddhism, she needs to be informed). And it wasn't until I traveled overseas that I realized how very much we have here in America. Although I am against some of the US policies on things regarding restricting freedoms of things that cannot be taxed (i.e. internet gambling, legalizing marijuana, etc.) I love this country from the bottom of my heart, and appreciate it for the wonderful things we have here.So yes to the Pledge of Allegiance, no to that oath to defend the Constitution. Unfortunately, like the Bible, it can be interpreted in too many ways and amended to suit the aims of the powers that be.

 

[Mben]

@PSP - Patriotism .... that's the word! @Calig - I was going to say that about God in the pledge also which you said very well .... there are varying perspectives of what God is and that it's a matter of interpretation . What's that quote? you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Great discussion!